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An Interview With Steve Sjogren About Outflowing
PART ONE
The book Outflow has been out for a couple of years and continues to draw in numbers of new congregations across the country.
Steve has had some interesting perspectives that spawned that book as well as a lot of new thinking in the area of outreach.
Whether you have read the book or not, enjoy some candid time with Steve here as he speaks from his heart…
Serve - For those who aren’t familiar with your book, please explain the concept of “outflow.”
SRS - The graphic on the book cover is of a multi-tiered fountain. As fountains go, this is a common sight. The natural overflow of one level pours into the next level, and so on.
So it goes with the Overflow concept.
I suspect that shortly after the Dark Age of the Church settled in (when Constantine commandeered things in circa 350 AD) the word Evangelism went from a “Gee, this is fun, natural, super energizing, a “get to” and flip flopped. In fact, from numerous historical writings, it appears that there was little reaching out that went on for vast timeframes / centuries in Church history. When evangelism did come back to the fore in the past 150 years, it became seen as something only for the gifted, the “them” not the “us.”
Overflow is an super encouraging book of stories of very average people discovering the sheer joy that comes when we stumble across the simple idea that as we serve, show generosity, even look people in the eye and show respect – God through us has scattered a handful of everlasting seeds that might well lead to more in-depth conversations about the Good (Great!) News of Jesus.
Serve - In terms of your own ministry, how long have you been practicing “outflow”? Was it an instinctual approach from the beginning, or did a light bulb go off one day?
SRS - My story is almost a lifelong one. My mom, who was really a New Ager before the term was officially used, had a hunger for God upon her life that was unsatiable. Yet she was looking in all the wrong places. At the same time, she has always been the kindest person I have ever met. Her practical kindness affected me even as a teenager – a time when many kids hate everything and everyone (as many might remember themselves!)
I began a search in my teens for someone to pattern my life behind. That led me to Kirkegaard, the Danish pastor who coined Existentialism – the approach to life that says, among other things, “If something is real, you can experience it.” With that belief in mind, I rejected the church as I saw it, though I had little to no relationship with the church. But Kirkegaard had a famous term, “The leap of faith” that I couldn’t shake.
My life changed one April day at a Doobie Brothers concert at, of all places, Sun Devil Stadium, at Tempe, Arizona. As they sang “Jesus is Just Alright With Me” I distinctly felt and sensed the invitation of God to begin to follow Jesus with all of my heart, soul, strength and mind. It was unmistakable. Almost a Damascus Road experience! As I and my looped out friends (hey, they aren’t the “Doobie” Brothers for nothing!) walked out of the stadium, a group of a dozen hippie, Jesus People were at the exits giving out FOR FREE comic books they had written, with characters explaining all about Jesus, how to come to him, etc. – with stick figures. I stopped, spoke with them, they prayed for me, me with my very long hair, looking like them, I began to weep uncontrollably. My friends did get it.
I don’t understand what happened right there. I don’t’ remember what I prayed. But I do see that as a point of convergence with me understanding that not only was I from then on following Jesus as my Lord, but I was going to serve my way into people’s hearts.
I certainly have failed far more than succeeded along the way, but that was the origin.
Not until a decade later did I have the beginning of the language for what I believed, helpful metaphors to bring others along.
Serve - Your book is uniquely written to be read one reading per weekday for five weeks. Is that in part because a church leader typically has such a busy schedule? Are there other reasons?
The book wasn’t simply written for church leaders – it was written for the average person in the seats as well as church leaders.
Redefinition is the first reason.
We realized that there is a need for a paradigm shift in the leadership of the Church world from “I can’t” and “That’s not me” to “This isn’t that difficult after all…” and “Maybe I’ve had a far too complex vision of what is involved with this stuff…”
Engaging people in a process is the second reason.
After leading for several decades in local church contexts, I have discovered time and again, that all leading comes down to repeating key phrases and metaphors over and over and over – with a huge smile on one’s face!
Leaders who usher in magnificent life change never ever grow tired of repeating themselves. People have to unlearn what they thought was the truth about thus and such as they engage in a doable, approachable way of life – the Jesus lifestyle for example. Jesus always served THEN spoke. Just like kindergarten. Show THEN tell. It’s really very simple.
Serve - It seems like a large part of the concept of “outflow” is investing time, energy and money into people you normally wouldn’t -- the waiter at the restaurant, the girl behind the counter at your favorite coffee spot, or even the lady behind you in the drive-thru. At what point, and for what reasons, do you think some church leaders forget (or neglect) to do these kinds of things?
SRS - Yes, absolutely – you hit the nail directly on the head!
My experience is that most leaders have never been challenged to live as though not-yet believers really count. I know that sounds harsh, but as a long-term waiter at numbers of restaurants – and as one who always engages waiting personnel – as well as cashiers – and fast food workers (in fact, I talk to about everyone I run into every day if they are willing to chat – I am not exaggerating – you have to take my word on that!) it is very clear that the conclusion of the “watching world” as Francis Schaeffer calls it, is that the Church population at large is - aloof
- stingy
- disconnected
- unfriendly
Now of course, that is by and large not 100% accurate.
On the other hand, as leaders we would do very well to first of all lead the way in connecting with stranger ourselves. I call it “celebrating everyone” because everyone is a spectacular person – because, as Peter reminds us, “He is not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to Christ…” The first step often will be a simple connection – looking people in the eye, remembering their name. I always (100% of the time) buy several cashiers at my local Best Buy the softdrink of their choice. I don’t ask, “Would you like a soft drink?” for then they might say, “No thanks out of shock…” Rather I say, “Which would you rather have – diet or regular – I’m getting a Diet Coke…” as I hold several in my arms. Cost: $1.29. I am very rarely turned down. They always ask, “Why? What church are you from?” I often direct them to Kindness.com, my site that offers people a simple, engaging way to hear about Jesus and sushi as they are connected with taking a risk. The next time around I buy another soft drink and we continue to talk about the video, and more about Jesus. Very simple.
Serve - You’ve used water as a repetitive theme in your book -- e.g., the overflowing “glass of life,” “getting your feet wet” exercises, the “your life as a fountain” analogy, etc. Are there Biblical meanings behind its use, or was it simply the most appropriate metaphor?
People think most clearly and remember well when metaphors are given to them. All great communicators speak in stories or metaphors.
Our hope with Outflow is to give lots of word pictures people will connect with – and more importantly – relate to and remember for a long time to come.
TO BE CONTINUED NEXT MONTH! |
